Curse

Fitz Rinley · Mar 17, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miska Bow

In pre there are 2 quest to teach new players how to party and play with other players.

1-Adventure with an Ally. Teaches you how to party.
2-Across the Wall. Allows the new players to interact with other player while doing quests, therefore learning a bit about team strategies and synergy.

Now what is the "right thing"? Denying all new players of this opportunity to learn, or suiting your little needs ? That my friend, is exactly what your asking for and its the reason why it should not be change. Its a wonder how a so well articulate and analytical person like you did not think of it.

Well, I did think of it. As a matter of fact. If you will pay attention to detail you will notice that the proposal was only for characters where the title track has registered. It was not for regular pre-characters on their way to post after a normal experience in Pre.

Quote:

Originally Posted by genofreek

Oh, I just love the recurring Fitz AFKer of Ascalon threads
/notsigned. Using your sex analogy... pay for a hooker or get yourself a girlfriend.

While I am sure you would want to be my girlfriend it is precisely because of people like you and MagmaRed that I have ceased to attempt to be anyone's friend. I no longer help new players to like them, but only out of obligation alone. Nor do I spend time looking for new players to help. My experience with people like you has taught me that interaction with others is merely an exploration in how little morality exists in any world - fictitious or real. I did not help others so that they would help me. I will not help others for payback. As it stands I figure about 6,200 to 6,300 more runs death leveling to achieve title because of selfish wipes like you who insist that dedicated players must live according to your lifestyle.

It would not break the engine or take excessive time to add a dialogue option with Gate Guard Torin that only triggers when you are not in a party and have the LDoA title track active. To pretend it will prevent or delay by more than an hour or three the production of GW2 is assinine.

genofreek · Mar 18, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

You're a bit old for me, Fitz. But I'll keep you in mind for later. <3

And I'm sorry, but why should gate monkeys give free services to you? Where's this entitlement coming from? It's their time. They're offering you a service that, frankly, is hardly expensive. You earn more killing shit north of the wall than they charge. And if you're managing to run low somehow, go to another area of Pre-searing and take your frustrations out on some of those god damned blood sworn.

If Anet hasn't implemented the changes you want yet, after years of the title being in the game and several threads made here petitioning to remove gate monkeying, I think you're fighting a losing battle. Still, good luck getting your title. No sarcasm -- after all the stress it's caused you, I really want you to achieve your personal holy grail.

Fitz Rinley · Mar 18, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

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Originally Posted by genofreek

You're a bit old for me, Fitz. But I'll keep you in mind for later. <3

, If your legal - don't knock experience.

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And I'm sorry, but why should gate monkeys give free services to you? Where's this entitlement coming from? It's their time. They're offering you a service that, frankly, is hardly expensive.

A runner taking someone to a place they have not earned the right to get to, like a level one getting to Droks - is a service. Charging fellow soldiers for access to the enemy from which you are defending them is not a service - it is immoral. It is an action which has no moral right to exist.

Further, 2,000 trips at 50g each and a character will max their gold. They have no reason to have this gold in Pre. None. The only reason to do this is to be a sweatshopper gate hooking for ebay gold sellers. Which I have always opposed.

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You earn more killing shit north of the wall than they charge. And if you're managing to run low somehow, go to another area of Pre-searing and take your frustrations out on some of those god damned blood sworn.

I cannot go north of the wall. It is not open for me to get there. Because of the behavior of those who oppose making work on the title functional, enjoyable, entertaining, interesting, workable, and efficient I will Never deliberately seek to socialize with any of you again. The opposition has made none of you worthy of my company in this regard. While I remain resolute for a change that is for the better for all active and beginning players - the opposition remains solely, only, and merely selfish and self-centered in their nastalgia and celebration of the spite which this title was created to award.

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If Anet hasn't implemented the changes you want yet, after years of the title being in the game and several threads made here petitioning to remove gate monkeying, I think you're fighting a losing battle. Still, good luck getting your title. No sarcasm -- after all the stress it's caused you, I really want you to achieve your personal holy grail.

I would much rather finish/get done so that I can move on to playing the game. Until the title is achieved I cannot play the game. Instead I must endure this monotonous bullcrap for another 6,275 runs out of Barradin's Estate. So, in approaximately 8 years and 218 days I will be able to play the game again.

This is only because of their support of immorality and refusal to support changes to improve conditions for their fellow players and future players.

Something else they could do, but this may be much more complicated and engine change intensive, is allow us to open two acconts at the same time. In that way I could not only let myself into the Northlands, I could also let others in for free and debilitate the gate hooking industry.

jiggles · Mar 18, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

I have a pre-searing character. And I'd love to know how these people can hold 300k without storage.

/unsigned x10. Not only because I disagree with it, but to see how this unrolls if I try to pass off multiple "votes" in one post.

In short, buy black dyes.

genofreek · Mar 18, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

I see your point, but surely you recognize that the noble lore of soldiers uniting against the charr invasion is sort of... not the way the game works in reality. Storylines are nice, and that's part of the reason I play PvE almost exclusively. But really, you're asking to forego paying for a service that, while simple, takes up someone's time. They expect to be paid for it. If you were on the other side of the deal, I imagine you'd be furious at all the welfare-riding freeloaders profiting off your blood, sweat, and tears.

I don't quite understand your inability to do anything else in the game, but that's on you. Your choice, cross to bear, whatever you'd call it. Personally, I can't stand to do the same thing for long. When doing HFFF I usually quit after about 4-5k because I just can't stand it anymore. Anyway, good luck.

Rushin Roulette · Mar 18, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

A runner taking someone to a place they have not earned the right to get to, like a level one getting to Droks - is a service. Charging fellow soldiers for access to the enemy from which you are defending them is not a service - it is immoral. It is an action which has no moral right to exist.

You really see to be taking this storylline far too serious... you are NOT a soldier and north of the Wall is NOT a battlefield, you are going in there alone and without an army and murdering innocent campers at their campfire... men women and children Charr. They just want to be left alone. No wonder they are pissed off beyond any reason and start the searing. YOU are the cause of the searing.

You think that you are so moral now looking at it from that point of view?

And as for runners in post running a level 1 to drocks... Taking it from your POV, is it moral to take a raw recruit into the middle of a heated battlefield where he has less chances of surviving outside than a snowball in hell?

Twonaiver · Mar 18, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

/notsigned

better ways to get title than deathleveling, it sucks.

TheRaven · Mar 18, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Fitz, I usually agree with your posts. Most are well reasoned. However this time I think you are really out on a limb and flaming folks like MagmaRed just for opposing your viewpoint isn't gaining you many supporters.

I can't agree with your real-life analogies with the police or soldiers. This isn't real life. It's a game. The quests don't have to make sense. They were placed there to teach the game to newbies and teamwork is just one of the lessons to be learned in pre. I mean seriously, would you drink an ale dropped by a flesh golem in Perdition Rock??? Most of us won't eat a cookie that dropped on the kitchen floor. It's just a game!

Gate monkeys provide a legitimate service. Just like runners do. If you don't want to use a gate monkey then don't. As Magma has pointed out, there are other alternatives.
- Spend a day in ascalon opening the gate for free for others. Ask only that they return the favor when they can.
- Ask someone in your Alliance for help.
- Join the pre-searing.com community. There are a lot of folks there going for LDoA and most will open the gate for free for others in the community.
- Offer to take a low level over the wall and kill the level 5 oakhearts for them. Ask that he map out before you take on the charr bosses. If he refuses then just don't help that particular player again.

Sorry, but /not signed. Feel free to flame me.

Fitz Rinley · Mar 18, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by genofreek

I see your point, but surely you recognize that the noble lore of soldiers uniting against the charr invasion is sort of... not the way the game works in reality. Storylines are nice, and that's part of the reason I play PvE almost exclusively.

It is not merely the storyline, it is the game story line.

Quote:

But really, you're asking to forego paying for a service that, while simple, takes up someone's time. They expect to be paid for it. If you were on the other side of the deal, I imagine you'd be furious at all the welfare-riding freeloaders profiting off your blood, sweat, and tears.

I do not want their sweat or tears. But if they intend to keep preying upon their fellow Ascalons for attempting to defend them I may want them swinging from a tall tree.

It is not possible for me to be furious with those who are risking resurrection in my defense. When I have let people into the north I have not charged and have mapped out refusing payment because the taking of payment is unethical. The Free Riders (John Rawls) are those who take an unfair advantage to selfishly coerce profit from fellow soldiers because there is no just means of accessing the Northlands for working on the title.

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I don't quite understand your inability to do anything else in the game, but that's on you. Your choice, cross to bear, whatever you'd call it. Personally, I can't stand to do the same thing for long. When doing HFFF I usually quit after about 4-5k because I just can't stand it anymore. Anyway, good luck.

I have 9 level 20s. The only non-level 20 is the remake of a character I would not have had to remake if the title would have been possible to achieve for those that had already left Pre and for whose storyline it fit. I have already finished all 4 campaigns with at least one character each. This is the only character that I cannot work with the others because of the refusal by people like MagmaRed to support efficient, effective, enjoyable, reasonable, and functional access to character needs. (All so that the foundation of an award for Spite may be nostalgically maintained.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

You really see to be taking this storylline far too serious... you are NOT a soldier and north of the Wall is NOT a battlefield, you are going in there alone and without an army and murdering innocent campers at their campfire... men women and children Charr. They just want to be left alone. No wonder they are pissed off beyond any reason and start the searing. You are the cause of the searing.
You think that you are so moral now looking at it from that point of view?

This is in everyway like trying to compare Bin Laden to George Washington and calling both Freedom Fighters. To both be Freedom Fighters they would have to both be fighting for something called Freedom. But one was risking personal fortune, valued life, engaged only as needed, fought standing armies, and fought for freedom – in case your education is lacking that was George Washington. The other, Bin Laden, misappropriates others fortunes, self admittedly values death, engages for sensationalism, murders women and children using women and children (while himself hiding in seclusion, runs from standing armies, and fights to impose oppressive murderous theocratic dictatorships. But because you have bought into the pseudo-reasoning that discrimination on the basis of fact eliminates moral difference you can equally say that the lone soldier or small team acting to defeat an oppressive, murderous, enemy whose intent is to enslave and eat his friends, family, countrymen, and species is morally no different than that enemy. And btw, the worshippers of the Titans are the cause of the Searing.

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And as for runners in post running a level 1 to drocks... Taking it from your POV, is it moral to take a raw recruit into the middle of a heated battlefield where he has less chances of surviving outside than a snowball in hell?

Looking upon the experienced, one can say that whether you have 8 weeks of training or 18 years of training, you are Nothing more than a Raw Recruit until you leave that blood-bathed battlefield alive. But there is one excessive difference you miss. Those run to Droks will there be able to obtain the best statistical equipment in game for their defense. Those in real life will still be issued the cheapest equipment a contractor could get away with making for the least amount of money the government could spend.
Where the Raw Recruit taken to Droks loses is in the development of those reflexes and skills needed to play the game at the level of challenge expected. By the time they get to a place where max armor is needed they are substandard players from not needing those reactions speeds to survive lower areas with their already maxed armor. In real life, those that make this failure with the cheapest armor money can get away with do not get a second chance to get better. Isn’t it nice our Fantasy side has such a wonderful safety net.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twonaiver

better ways to get title than deathleveling, it sucks.

I would like to know how you are going to get through 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th levels (plus the 2,000 xp needed beyond questing) to make 20th for title without death leveling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

Fitz, I usually agree with your posts. Most are well reasoned. However this time I think you are really out on a limb and flaming folks like MagmaRed just for opposing your viewpoint isn't gaining you many supporters.

When I chose to flame MagmaRed it will be blatant. This is merely memory of our long association of disagreement in the face of this persons intent on being obstructive to game development that would benefit fellow players and make the game more accessible and enjoyable.

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I can't agree with your real-life analogies with the police or soldiers. This isn't real life. It's a game.

Moral value does not change merely because one plays a game. The people that we are and how we express what we are does not change merely because we play a game.

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The quests don't have to make sense. They were placed there to teach the game to newbies and teamwork is just one of the lessons to be learned in pre. I mean seriously, would you drink an ale dropped by a flesh golem in Perdition Rock??? Most of us won't eat a cookie that dropped on the kitchen floor. It's just a game!

I actually have not asked for the quests to make sense. I asked for an additional dialogue option to be available After: 1) the LDoA title track is active on the character, and while 2) the player character is alone in the party.

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Gate monkeys provide a legitimate service. Just like runners do.

Sorry, what is not moral cannot be in essence be legitimate. You will find my opposition to running has been the unfortunate side effects of it. You will equally find my support for it has been the beauty of it as a sport. ANet has failed repeatedly to create circumstances were legitimate running could be incorporated into the storyline or as a side activity.

Where else does the Pin attempt to avoid 500 intelligent active and angry Bowling Balls? A race between runners, across sea and under leaf, for faction could have been set up in Cantha. A run to warn the Princes of Vabbi of impending assault by Varesh could have been set up in Elona. A run across any number of places in GWEN could have been set up. An Underground running dungeon could have been placed in GWEN with a random max gold modifiable skin drop from any of the games for each member of the party at the end of it. With the beauty and interest in running it could have been made legitimate and interesting.

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- Spend a day in Ascalon opening the gate for free for others. Ask only that they return the favor when they can.

This will not benefit those who have limited time and must because of real life be casual players, but who have every right to access the title. They should not be forced to bend over for gate hookers in order to work on the title in the limited time available to them.

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- Ask someone in your Alliance for help.

This assumes that someone in one’s guild or alliance is present in Pre and must dedicate their time to being used by you to get into the Northlands. Again, unacceptable.

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- Join the pre-searing.com community. There are a lot of folks there going for LDoA and most will open the gate for free for others in the community.

I should not be required to join an outside organization to obtain an inside game goal. I should be able to do this on my own once I am qualified as make progress toward the title, and so should everyone else.

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Offer to take a low level over the wall and kill the level 5 oakhearts for them. Ask that he map out before you take on the Charr bosses. If he refuses then just don't help that particular player again.

This results in the same condition we already have, we cease to help 99.99999999999999999999999% of all players.

MagmaRed · Mar 18, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I cannot go north of the wall. It is not open for me to get there.

What happened to your morality? That is a lie. Even a lvl 1 character who has never played the game can go North of the wall. It can be done without paying a gate monkey too. Lying is moral?

Fitz, read what the people have said. Read it carefully. They may have a different opinion than yours, but maybe they have ideas that will help you. You see oppostition, and you ignore anything else said. Stop being an idiot, and realize this is a game, not real life.

Rushin Roulette · Mar 18, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

This is in everyway like trying to compare Bin Laden to George Washington

So... which one are you? Taking my analogy from before, George Washington wouldnt be the aggressor, Bin Laden is.

If you want to fully adopt the Presearing lore, then the Charr are just an anoyance, a minor race of savages kept easily at bay on the other side of the wall. You should have no idea of what they will do in the near future because your character has not lived through the searing.

By deathleveling you are commiting attrocious acts of genocide and them being a religious group, you are also guilty of anti-semetism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Moral value does not change merely because one plays a game.

Yes it does... or do you run around in real life with a sword and kill Monks just to reanimate their lifeless bodies turning them into mindless slaves to turn on their past friends (animate bone minions/horror)?

MithranArkanere · Mar 19, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

It's actually VERY common in GW to let people enter certain limited areas once they have made some quests or missions in the area.

Specially in Factions and Vabbi.

If a character has made the two 'be with a parner' quests. why not let them pass?

{IceFire} · Mar 19, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

First, in 14 levels I have earned about 12k. No, I did not earn it so I could throw it away on gate hookers. Yes, I find the ability to make money in legitimate ways in GW to be very limited, especially for initial characters. It is not even possible to earn gold as fast as skill points for purchasing skills.

Second, MagmaRed has always been terrified that someone might actually enjoy playing the game by playing instead of setting it to play and abandoning it for hours or days to death leveling. MagmaRed has always oposed anything that would make any part of the LDoA acquisition enjoyable play, so no opposition from MagmaRed at this point has any value to me. They are in the list of people whom I detest for their intense desire to control other people's lives and ensure immoral lessons are mandated in the game.

Third, there remains a difference between running which is a way players seek to get someplace they have not earned the right to be in order to access things they have not earned the right to access versus gate hooking. Gate hooking is based upon denying one's same side in the war access to the enemy. It is like charging our troops $50.00 before allowing them to go on patrol. It is like charging the bomb squad $50.00 before allowing them to search for and difuse a terrorist threat. It is like charging the police $50.00 before allowing them to enter a premises and rescue a spouse from abuse. There is a clear ethical distinction between the service of running and the exploitation of gate hooking.

...

Is this a joke?

To start off, 12,000 gold is 240 runs, and as mentioned before, it should even be a net loss when you pick up your drops. What else is there to spend money in pre on besides dyes, ID or salvage kits? (And dyes are unneeded)

Second, LDoA has never been a well-designed title. It has stemmed off of what used to be considered (and, arguably, still is) an exploit. The title always has been and always will be, a complete waste of time and a huge grind(wait, I just described all titles... But I won't go there)

Gate "Hookers" (I believe the more polite term is "Monkey") are providing a service. Comparing charging a trivial fee in order to assist someone in a virtual endeavour to committing a sexual act for money is laughable. And the comparison to charging soldiers to go into battle is weak. There is a line between real life and gaming here that has been crossed. Anyways, the game itself is not charging you money.

The quest was DESIGNED for two people and that's how it will remain. The LDoA acquisition itself is flawed in this way because the Northlands were solely used in the Across the Wall party quest.

Fitz Rinley · Mar 20, 2008, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I cannot go north of the wall. It is not open for me to get there.

What happened to your morality? That is a lie. Even a lvl 1 character who has never played the game can go North of the wall.

Sorry, you are 100% wrong. I cannot log into Ascalon, walk out the gate, turn right, walk to the Northlands gate, and walk through. Therefore, I did not lie. It is not open to me to get there. Nor is it open to anyOne else to get there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

This is in everyway like trying to compare Bin Laden to George Washington

So... which one are you? Taking my analogy from before, George Washington wouldnt be the aggressor, Bin Laden is.

You fail your Tyrian history test. The area north of the wall is in part Piken. The exact same structure that makes Piken is nearly directly across from the gate in. The Aggressors are the Charr and I am a defender of my species which They seek to commit genocide against.

Quote:

If you want to fully adopt the Presearing lore, then the Charr are just an anoyance, a minor race of savages kept easily at bay on the other side of the wall. You should have no idea of what they will do in the near future because your character has not lived through the searing.

One does not need any inkling of the Searing to know that the Charr have already disemboweled Surmia, the Eastern Frontier, Piken, and the areas inhabited north of the wall.

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By death leveling you are committing atrocious acts of genocide and them being a religious group, you are also guilty of anti-Semitism.

Again we see that wonderful liberal logic where nothing has to actually have a relationship to the accusation. In order to be anti-Semitic, one would first have to be dealing with someone or something that is in someway Semitic. While I have not checked any Charr for circumcision, I find the prospect unlikely. And I have argued before that the title should have positive ways to acquisition that do not involve repetitive ritualized suicide. But if they insist on the idiocy of keeping death leveling for the nostalgia of those who first circumvented them merely to spite the rules, at the least they could make the action accessible directly for those working on the track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Moral value does not change merely because one plays a game.

Yes it does... or do you run around in real life with a sword and kill Monks just to reanimate their lifeless bodies turning them into mindless slaves to turn on their past friends (animate bone minions/horror)?

I do not generally take my flambard out because I do not want it damaged. I also have more efficient weapons. But getting to the real questions:
1) If faced with an invading foe intent on the enslavement of my country, the use of my countrymen as food, and the annihilation of my nations way of life – yes, I would have no compulsions against eliminating their support staff (logistical, medical, etc.)
2) If the use of said foe, alive or dead, will provide greater efficiency or effectiveness in the protection of my country, my countrymen, and our heritage – yes, I will use any part of them necessary or expedient to that end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by {IceFire}

To start off, 12,000 gold is 240 runs, and as mentioned before, it should even be a net loss when you pick up your drops. What else is there to spend money in pre on besides dyes, ID or salvage kits? (And dyes are unneeded)

Ok, I admit to using all the orange dye I Found to dye my armor copper.

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Second, LDoA has never been a well-designed title.

Sufficient said here. Agreed.

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Gate "Hookers" (I believe the more polite term is "Monkey") are providing a service. Comparing charging a trivial fee in order to assist someone in a virtual endeavour to committing a sexual act for money is laughable. And the comparison to charging soldiers to go into battle is weak. There is a line between real life and gaming here that has been crossed. Anyways, the game itself is not charging you money.

That the game itself is not charging money is irrelevant and disconnected. The gate hookers hanging around gates and stairwells plying their trade is little different than a hooker, but may indeed be closer to a pusher. After all, once you are started on the title they Know they got you hooked on the drug at 50g a shot.

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The quest was DESIGNED for two people and that's how it will remain.

Um, pay attention to detail. No one has asked for the quest to be changed. Only access to the Northlands while working on the LDoA title.

MagmaRed · Mar 20, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Fitz, learn what reality is. And you are wrong. A lvl 1 character can enter the Northlands. I didn't say they can do it alone, but they can do it. And so can you.

TheRaven · Mar 20, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

This thread has gotten ridiculous. Many folks have replied and given the OP other options to enter the Northlands besides paying a gate monkey. Instead of listening he has decided to just argue each point. At this point, I think he just wants to argue for the sake of arguing and it's time to close the thread.

The bottom line: I personally couldn't care less whether they change the way access to the Northlands works or not. If Arena net decides to add an option to the guard, Great!! If they don't, Great!!! Judging purely from the responses in this thread this isn't a major problem for anybody except the OP and I think A-net should be using their resources elsewhere.

I doubt anything I say will change the OP's opinion. You hate the gate monkeys. We get that. However you went from making a valid point to making a fool of yourself. It's not worth putting this much energy into an argument.

[email protected] · Mar 21, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

try typing PSCGO in chat...

over at presearing.com they came up with this to stand for Pre Searing Community Gate Opener...
basically a mutual free opening service, one of the community will open for you - and you should return the favour if you see someone asking.

/notsigned

Stella/Shin · Mar 21, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

/not signed

it's a good for making money and i don't go against money making things...

RPGmaniac · Mar 21, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Considering how the title was meant as a reward for the permapre characters, not an incentive for people to make them, I don't see why the gate opening should be changed, especially now.

And I don't think this thread will last long because the cats are out already.

Fitz Rinley · Mar 21, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

The title was not meant as a reward for the Pre-Searing Community. It was created as a reward for the spiteful individuals who said Screw ANet/GW we will find an exploit to hit level 20 in Pre.

GW created the title and saying, "O, look at the cute little rebellious clucks." Then had to open the title back up because the title itself was wanted by those who just have to have everything anyone else does and because it's desirable for RP reasons. But GW failed the title when they brought it back and added nothing to make it worth while beyond the phrasing of it. They set up nothing in the Northlands to support it through regular play (Death Leveling is aberrant play). They did nothing to support it without making it a drain on the individual in excessive time and funds to do it. (Hence why no one actually plays for it - they just set and go out on a holiday.)

The gate hookers should not exist. I have never earned any gold screwing over fellow players and I never will. That is all a gate hooker is for and all they stand for. There is no reason for that amount of gold in Pre, unless you are cycling through characters to sell gold on-line.